Even Better Than The Real Thing fades out

Mark Goodier: Things that I'll do during the show, 'cos I get distracted when I'm talking, is things like forgetting to put the next record on; which I just about did; as Adam and Larry and Bono and The Edge join us. Welcome to Radio1, it's been about three years.

The Edge: It has Mark, nice to be here.

MG: It's nice to see you back, and we were all sort of fathoming upstairs why you chose to come on the show, and for whatever reason, thanks very much. I know you don't do many interviews and you don't do that many bits of talking, but now we've got ya we're gonna make you talk. Um, how have you spent - I mean what kinds of things have you done since this album came out? 'Cos you've been so quiet in the press. What have you actually been up to?

Edge: We thought everyone was just sick of hearing us talk. So we decided that we wouldn't - not until we figured out what we wanted to say.

Bono: What do we want to say, man?

Edge: We're still trying to get it together. Maybe we'll find out tonight. I dunno; we just didn't want to do interviews basically because it was the predictable thing to do. Also what happens is, you finish an album and immediately after you finish an album you've got to go off and start explaining yourself, and it's just the wrong moment to try and do that, because you're so wrapped up in it. So we just thought we wouldn't do that this time, we'd take a bit of a break and see if we wanted to do anything later on. So we're starting to do a few things now.

MG: You've kind of done it the opposite way round, as you say, from usual. And the reaction to it has been in some senses opposite to usual, Larry, because most intelligent critics (laughter) - I'm bringing you in here -

Edge(?): Now there's a brave man!

MG: Well most intelligent critics have applauded what you've done with this album. They've said it's brave and it's different or whatever. I'm not sure that you really care what the critics say. But there are only just a few sad people who were hoping for a Joshua Tree 2 who failed to appreciate it. Are you pleased that it's had this kind of effect?

Larry: (puts on fake feeble voice) ...emmm yes....yeah....... (general laughter) I mean I haven't heard anyone say they wanted another Joshua Tree.

MG: No But you've come away from the situation where people would have an expectation of hearing a similar kind of thing on the next album, and you haven't delivered that.

Larry: We've never done that on any of our records.

MG: Adam, you're not worried about the loss of the less loyal fans at all are you?

Adam: Umm...I don't know if they're lost.

MG: I'm not sure that they are either, but you know....

Adam: I think it's not so much that we would be losing fans, I think it's the fact that we would be gaining them on this record. You know, some people do stop buying records for whatever reason, but I don't think it's because Achtung Baby is inaccessible.

MG: I don't - I'm not sure that it really is. Why did it take so long to deliver? I mean it sounds like a very immediate album.

Adam: In what sense deliver?

Edge: We're just very very slow, is the real reason.

MG: Well I suppose it's been a little while since Rattle And Hum. I suppose a year in the making?

Adam: No, I don't think it was slow. I think it was very fast for us! (laughter)

MG: Is this the shape of things to come for U2?

Adam: I don't know what's going to come next.

Edge: We've given up actually trying to work out how it comes, or why it comes. We just wait till it's there and then we just put it out. It does seem to take us a long time to get it together, but you know people are patient, and eventually....

MG: Yeah and fans are rewarded. You implied by that that there was a time when you did think more about it?

Edge: Well out of necessity early on we really didn't have any time to think about whether an album was finished, we just had to put it out whether it was finished or not. But now because we're mega rock stars we can (laughter) wait round a little longer and get it right. Which is great, I must say; it's a lot nicer than having to get it out after four weeks.

MG: You recorded bits of it in Berlin just after the wall came down, in fact we did a programme in Berlin about six months after you were there, Bono, (pronounces it 'Bone-o') and we went to the Hansa Studios -

Edge: Bonn-o. (laughter)

MG: Bonn-o. You were I suppose in a very special place there. We did a brief interview in there, it felt magical.

Bono: Hansa Studios being a special place, or Berlin?

MG: Well both really, but Hansa was - we kind of did a whistle stop tour, you had some time there.

Bono: That's where I saw you before. The 'Old Grey Whistle Stop'. (laughter)

MG: He's on later actually, the old grey whistle stop. He's on at midnight, old Bob is.

Bono: He's a cool guy, man.

MG: He might even come in and say hello now we've mentioned him. Hansa?

Bono: Yeah! It's a great rock'n'roll room, a lot of great records were made there. Our engineer had worked there a lot, and it seemed like the place to be right at that time. We arrived there just as that whole German, y'know, tearing down the wall and the two sides getting together and all that...it was quite a trip really.

MG: And you got the idea for the Trabants?

Bono: The Trabants thing, I don't know quite where that came from. Probably Anton Corbijn and his rather Beckett-like sense of humour, probably.

Edge: Every morning we'd drive in to the studio, and there'd be a new burnt out trabbie on the side of the road where some guy had been trying to make it from some obscure part of East Germany and his car had just made it and he'd just had to leave it on the side of the road. It became a bit of a joke, you'd just see these things.

Bono: Some of them melt in the rain, did you know that?

MG: I believe it with the acid rain in the East. That's going to take a very long time to clean up. But the room at Hansa; describe it to the listener. It was like a - you could almost imagine a very old town hall in the UK. It was just like....it was dirty, no way smart and tidy. Even the equipment was like hardly working.

Edge: Well in fact it was closed down almost when they took the booking for our album. It actually has since closed down. It's one of those great old studios, where the emphasis is on the sound not the actual hardware. We were looking for a big room which would just be great to play in, and we wanted to do the records like they used to, just sitting around in a circle and playing the songs. But those studios are sadly really out of favour now.

Bono: It was an old Nazi SS ballroom, which is kind of a bad vibe, really.

MG: Chilling thought!

Bono: Yeah, it is!

MG: But you don't think of it when you're there, do you?

Bono: No, it's kind of odd. It seems like the music has driven those demons out, 'cos there were no bad vibes there when we were there, other than Edge's smelly feet or whatever. (laughter)

MG: Adam, tell me about the other major place where you recorded, which was somewhere you rented overlooking Dublin Bay; which sounds like a bit of a contrast.

Adam: Ah, Dogtown. Dogtown was kind of very different. Didn't really - the hardware was all right and the decor was -

MG: Did you hire the gear in as well?

Adam: Yeah. No, we just set up this place where we liked the view, and kind of settled in there and put equipment in and just carried on recording. I think a lot of times people who design recording studios design them for other people who like equipment and shiny objects. And as we're musicians we actually prefer a good atmosphere to work in. So we just look for places that are inspiring, and I think both Dogtown and Hansa were inspiring places to create in, and that's much more important than what kind of equipment there is, y'know, whether there's Sony or whatever written on it, it doesn't really matter. As long as the tape is running when we're doing what we do that's what we're looking for.

MG: Sure. In the past you've done things like releasing demos and out-takes and special things on b-sides. I know you did do a remix with Youth on Night And Day. But you've moved more into remixing, certainly with the last single 'Mysterious Ways', Bono; are you - (laughs)

Bono: He sort of just looks at you!

MG: I looked you in the eye then. You haven't succumbed to the current record industry trend of making dance success out of non dance acts, have you?

Bono: Say that again? Slowly?

MG repeats question.

Edge: I always thought we were a dance act. Well I always thought that until I actually tried to dance to one of our songs. Then I found out we weren't.

Bono: Edge started out life in a dance band, that was his whole thing. Sly and the Family Stone an' that.

Edge: Not that many people know that, but I actually was ...

Bono: ...Sly!

Edge: I was Sly in a previous life.

Bono: No, the whole dance thing, it's huge in Ireland. The foxtrot (laughter) and the waltz is amazing. If you're really stuck - say if you're in the middle of a gig and it's just going all wrong; just try the foxtrot.

Edge: Gets them up.

MG: You were kind of caught, Bono, with your comments the last time on the air here, when you talked with Annie and the late Roger Scott about bootlegs, because of course some of the Achtung Baby material was bootlegged. I can't imagine that you were happy about that!

Bono: Ah y'know, you don't want to get too worked up about it - I don't care -

MG: Did you have somebody's legs broken?

Bono: Yeah man - and I'll have yours broken! (laughter)

MG: If I carry on this line of questioning!

Bono: If you don't put on another record. But no, the thing about bootlegs, is the only thing that can piss you off is if people are charging a lot of money for something that isn't very good. And that was maybe the story on this one, the gobbledegook bootleg from Berlin. It was just like having your notebook read out, that's the bit I didn't like about it. But there are some -

MG: Like your private diary or whatever?

Bono: Well; I mean there was no great undiscovered works of genius unfortunately. It was more just gobbledegook. But there were a few bits and pieces on that bootleg that are actually - when I got a copy of the bootleg - (I had to go out and buy one of course, myself) -

MG: (laughs) Where did you buy it, incidentally?

Bono: I have friends in the right places!

MG: (laughs) I want one! Listen, we're talking with U2. We're gonna talk some more; we'll play a song by James, then we'll get the guys back on.
*************
Mark Goodier: We have U2 in the studio, we have Adam and Larry and Bono and The Edge, and let's just wrap up some talk about Achtung Baby, then we'll talk about touring; 'cos there are people phoning up and saying: gigs. You're consistent in some respects 'cos you continue to work with Eno, Lillywhite and Lanois. Is that cos you know them so well or vice versa; Adam, maybe this question to you - because you have an understanding or is it because you prefer the innovation to come from within the band rather than take risks with an unknown producer?

Adam: I think we just think that they are the best for us, you know. If we came across someone else we thought could do it, and could collaborate, we would. But I think both Brian and Dan bring something to the project that gets the best out of us.

MG: I read a brief interview that you did, Bono, with an Irish radio station? When the album came out you called them in or something? And you said "We don't want to talk about this album". It's quite interesting because you - (laughter)

Bono: I phoned them up then told them I didn't want to talk to them. That's very rock 'n' roll!

MG: It is really, isn't it. But you've had this sort of time to elapse since, and in that time there've been articles; like Eno's article in Rolling Stone; you've had sort of other people speaking on your behalf about the album - it must feel strange?

Bono: Ohh....I mean, you know....errrr....No!........ (laughs)

Adam: Other people always tell you your baby looks like you. (laughter)

Bono: It's - I dunno - you asked that question a minute ago, didn't you? about why we're not speaking?

MG: No I said that off the air, I said I was going to ask you. This is a terrible thing. Tip for the listener: if you're interviewing famous people, don't tell 'em what you're gonna ask them.

Bono: All right. It's just the only reason - sometimes you appear if you turn up on the radio or turn up in papers talking about what you do, it appears like you're selling it. And..........that's right! (laughter) We're here to sell the record. No, I mean we just didn't want to put that across. Because when a record comes out from a big rock'n'roll band, you know there's all the billboards and all that stuff that goes with it, and you just don't want to add to the madness, so we just kept quiet. And as I think as Edge was saying, it's hard to make sense after you've been in a hole for about six months. You come out and you don't think straight...so a lot of people, they're probably better off.

MG: Are you thinking straight now?

Bono: I'm not sure.

MG: (laughs) 'Cos you've been working all day, shooting videos.

Bono: I'm not sure, I'll let the others talk.

MG: So we know why you haven't done the traditional thing and toured Achtung Baby on its release, 'cos you want to let it settle. Now Larry, it's back to you now Larry, okay I'm being brave for the second time. How will this -

Larry: I answered your question, I just said "yes". (laughs) What more do you want?

MG: OK. How - how will this tour that you're about to do differ from what you've done before. Will it be different?

Larry: I think we'll sort of know what we're doing this time around, (laughter) as opposed to the usual; we'll actually know the songs rather than learning them in the soundcheck. Yeah, we'll actually have a set list. Em, I think -

MG: Will you have other musicians?

Larry: No we won't. What we've done is -

Bono: Interviewed some machines.

Larry: (laughs) We've interviewed some machines, and I'm playing percussion for the whole tour, and Adam's playing bass pedals and the machines are doing the rest! That's basically it.

MG: (laughs) Believe it when you see it folks!

Larry: No, we're just flirting with the machine.

Adam: And Bono and Edge are staying at home!

MG: But this will be good news to long time U2 fans, Edge. 'Cos they think that the chemistry is very important and they don't like the idea of having other people on stage?

Edge: Well we actually did think seriously about bringing extra musicians in. But it's almost like... we just have this almost sentimental attachment to the four piece, you know? I don't know why, but it just seemed like four people on stage is what it's about for us. And we've always used technology to fill out our sound -

Bono: (whispers a little too loudly) Who's she?

MG: She's the engineer. She made sure that that comment was caught on the air. (laughter)

Bono: OK. Sorry!

Edge: Where was I? Oh yeah.

MG: You were halfway through an answer; sorry.

Larry: Can you remember what you were gonna say?

Edge: I do, yeah. I was making a very important point -

Adam: About technology and the four piece.

Bono: You're just a sentimental guy.

Edge: We're just using the technology to fill out the sound, but it's still basically the four of us.

Bono: Every appendage on this man's body is pressing some kind of important button.

MG: Not for the first time, I'd imagine.

Bono: Not for the first time. (laughter) ........Actually there was this really embarrassing line of promotion on our very first album. When we arrived in America and we were feeling pretty cool...for about a minute. And (laughs) they described The Edge as "a man of a t'ousand guitars." They thought this was very exciting.

Larry: The green tornado I think was also - (laughter)

Bono: Ohh well, I wasn't gonna bring that up........... I was described as the green tornado.

Edge: It was ironic since I only had one guitar at the time.

Bono: And a Memory Man. Wasn't that ...?

Edge: The first echo unit.

Bono: There's a lot - his side of the stage is like; fuck, it's like N.A.S.A. I mean it is a Cape Canaveral.

MG: Well controlled? (laughs)

Bono: Thank you...bless you, man. No it's a very complicated thing that he does.

MG: You don't need pedals when you're singing.

Bono: No, I don't.

MG: Except on the first track on Achtung Baby, Zoo Station, you might need something on your voice for that when you do it live?

Bono: Pedal pushers, I'm all into them. It's cycle chic......could be big!

MG: It's a very perverse thing though you see, 'cos you're talking about the nucleus of a band. The Jam were great 'cos they were a three piece. Lots of great small bands have actually had more energy than say your Phil Collins. I mean when he performs live he has a horn section and loads and loads of people, and it seems sometimes to be less immediate, less direct.

Edge: Yeah.

Adam: Ah leave Phil alone. (laughter)

MG: He's alright. One of the criticisms, if I may be so bold, of U2 is that you seem to always start tours always in America. You rarely seem to start them at home in Ireland or in the U.K.

Bono: Started the last one in Australia, man.

MG: Well that's what I mean, far away. Why do the longest fans have to wait?

Edge: 'Cos the weather's always much better.

MG: Apart from that.

Edge: Well that is the reason, to be honest.

Bono: We just don't want to screw up in front of the longest fans.

MG: (laughs) What a nice polite answer. Can you confirm the British dates.

Band: No.

MG: Please?

Edge: Yes! we are doing some British dates.

MG Yeah I know that - where?

Bono: Earls Court in London, ummmm I think.

Edge: He's lying, by the way.

Bono: No..no...Earls Court in London...S.E.C.C in Scotland...Manchester we want to play, and we want to play one free concert if we can. We want to play here, and this is sort of our core rock 'n' roll audience, is over here and in Ireland. We're not playing Ireland...there must be a reason.

MG: I read somewhere that your gonna play a big gig in the summer.

Bono: We'd really like to. It's just important - we haven't been to America believe it or not for about five years, whereas we have been in Europe, like, I think, recently. And, ah -

MG: (laughs) Not actually that recently, however!

Bono(?): (funny voice) Actually, two days ago. (laughs)

Edge: Well we're here now!

MG: So there'll be three or four gigs in the U.K probably.

Bono: Well, and we'll come back. If we're still enjoying playing live we want to come back. The tour could go on for a long time or a short time, depending on if it's going well and we're getting a good feeling from the music.

Adam: And if the machines behave themselves.

Bono: It may sound selfish but I mean we do actually play live a lot. But the world does seem to be getting bigger, and you want to see new places and you want to go to South America and -

Larry: Poland. (laughter)

Bono: Listen, man! What have the Poles ever done to you?

Larry: Well they drew, didn't they?

Bono: They what?

Everyone: They drew!

Edge: That's true, yeah.

Larry: Knocked us out the European Championships.

Bono: Alright.

Adam: One all, yeah. Oh yeah.

MG: So these dates, they'll be confirmed soon.

Bono: They will be confirmed soon.

Edge: The truth is there is just so much we haven't got together yet. So there is no point in giving you an incomplete list.

MG: It just sends everyone into a panic if you do. Who will support you on these dates? I understand in America it's going to be The Pixies.

Edge: Yeah.

MG: Who in this country?

Edge: We haven't decided.

Larry: Any ideas?

Bono: Send in your votes.

MG: Teenage Fan Club would be good? Actually Carter The Unstoppable Sex Machine are putting the rumour around that you want them on the tour.

Edge: Well we wanted to support them, but they wouldn't have us.

Bono: We won't have people in short trousers on our tour. (laughter)

MG: OK one more serious question before we play another song. You as far as I'm aware haven't done sponsorship on your tours.

Bono: Right.

MG: Everybody else is doing it, every other sort of major rock act.

Bono: Yeah, we're too stupid. (laughter)

MG: There's nothing ideological about this then.

Bono: Emm.......it's just embarrassing. I mean most people - you know, the great outdoors - have to bend over for a buck, just to pay the rent or whatever. I think it's just embarrassing to see rock stars doing it, 'cos they've got a shit-load of money anyway. There's nothing wrong with the idea of - I mean we're already on through Island and through all these big corporations; they're in your pants somewhere. So the idea about being precious and separate from that is bullshit. It's nothing on that level - it's just the embarrassment of seeing somebody wrap their arms around a Coke can and kiss it, y'know, for money! And they don't need the money. That's the only thing, it's just that it's embarrassing to see rock 'n' roll bend over.

Adam: I think if it's something that we're using, if it's -

Bono: Condoms????????

Adam: - equipment or musical instruments or something like that.

MG: (laughs) Condoms; Jack Daniels - who else could sponsor your tour effectively?

Bono: I mean it's not a big deal; we've always - for instance... I dunno who it is, who is it that do your drums?

Larry: Yamaha.

Bono: Right.

MG: They'll be pleased with that.

Bono: No, but people like that who...your gear, your strings on your guitar...that's always happened. You don't want to get too sanctimonious about it. It's just where you draw the line. Also for young bands I can't blame them if they want to appear on a whatever it is, sponsored act and they've no money....

Larry: There are a lot of beer companies in Ireland, and some soft drinks companies, who sponsor festivals and things like that for young bands, and there's nothing wrong with that.

MG: That's a good thing if you can get good bands on because of it.

Larry: Yeah, I think that that's fair enough, so it's not that sort of sponsorship. Sometimes people misunderstand what the point is. It's not all sponsorship, it's just that...as Bono says, big rock stars kissing Coke cans.

MG: Actually there are some pretty good sponsorship things going on where young bands who - 'cos there are a lot of venues now actually, that ask young bands to pay money to play in the venues, you know like pay to get your audience.

Bono: That's bollocks. And the same with these big rock'n'roll bands that are, y'know they pay these fat bastards to get on their tour -

Adam: That's an oops on the "bastard".

MG: No it's ok - you can say fat. (laughter)

Bono: (laughs) Alright. But that's another thing, y'know rock 'n' roll is a very -

Larry: No children under 12.

Bono: - seriously capitalist, take advantage of whatever you can type of environment...it's incredible. I mean you read about the independent music scene and credibility. Then you see the way these people treat their road crews; y'know it's incredible, the double standards in rock 'n' roll really. (puts on posh voice) It's really incredible! It's a shocking thing! It's absolutely shocking.

MG: It is incredible - we'll come back and talk about that! We're gonna play the Blake Babies here; you might like this.

Bono: (still in posh voice) God bless the Blake Babies.

MG: You like the intros to these records.

Bono: I prefer the intros to the records, mostly.

MG: Better than the songs?

Bono: Oftentimes. Same with U2, mate.

MG: Temptation Eyes by the Blake Babies.
***************
MG: Yeah, talk too much with the turns, with the stars, while the records are playing and you forget they're just about to finish. Ok, Blake Babies, Temptation Eyes; you didn't hear that did you, so you don't know whether you liked it or not.

Adam: We can put our clothes on now.

MG: Please. Just 'cos you do that on album covers you don't have to it in here. Where were we...ummm...You've been quite supportive as a band of Radio 1 in the past. It's quite major changes coming up in broadcasting in the future, things are pretty uncertain, y'know lots of other national stations -

Adam: Political manoeuvres in the dark.

MG: I would have thought there's a few of those sorts of things. How would you react to Radio 1 taking ads, or maybe being hived off from the rest of the B.B.C. because they don't think it's public service broadcasting?

Bono: You kick my ball and I'll scratch yours. (laughter) ...or something like that. What are you saying? The BBC...? Yeah.....I think that would be a very bad thing to pull the plug on the B.B.C....it's one of the best things about this bloody place.

MG: One of the things though, is that they say commercial radio is playing pop and rock, so Radio 1 is not necessary.

Adam: I think the thing about Radio 1 is that there are still shows that will play new records and play vinyl records even.

MG: Even this show plays vinyl.

Bono: Awwww... bless ya.

Adam: Yeah, and I think that's got to be preserved because if you don't have stimulating radio you don't have stimulated music happening and the whole process slows down.

Edge: Yeah, look at America. Look at American radio at the moment, it's in a terrible state and it's because of -

Bono: (murmurs confidentially) We're number one, by the way.

Edge: Well, exactly! (laughter) That proves it! No...because of the fact that it is commercial, and it's happening in Ireland unfortunately R.T.E is losing out to a huge influx of commercial radio.

Bono: Some of them are good though.

Edge: Yeeaaaahh, but there's a lot of -

Bono: You need competition - ya know! You do!

MG: The B.B.C. is happy to have competition.

Bono: Yeah. I mean it's bad news...I mean... well.

Edge: I love B.B.C., I mean where else would you - I mean on the World Service there last week I was listening to an hour long programme on owl droppings. I mean where else would you hear that! (laughter)

MG: You and Terry Waite both love the World Service. Last time you were here Bono, you said you'd like to do a session -

Bono: Owl droppings? Hold on a second, I'd just like to get in to this. Owl droppings?

Edge: It was an on the spot report on the tawny owl. (laughter) I kid you not, it was brilliant. I was riveted.

Bono: What is the story on the owl?

Edge: Um.....the furry vole, that seemed to be his major diet. They were going through the whole thing, it was brilliant. Now you'd never ever get that on a commercial station, let's be honest. Would you?

MG: I sincerely hope not. Last time you were here, Bono, you said you'd like to do a Radio 1 session again. When would you like to do it. I'll sort it out! I'll fix it!

Bono: emmmm....we love.......errrr...I'd love to ...I love live radio, that's why we're - (laughter)

Larry: Yeah, he would like to.

MG: Would you like to do it, Larry?

Larry: Well I don't think so, but Bono would like to!

MG: Adam?

Adam: Um, I'm happy to listen to it when Bono does it, no problem! (laughter)

Bono: No, I like live radio, I think it's good. It's just trying to talk these bastards in to it. No, it is actually.....it's.....why is it...why aren't we doing it?

Larry: It's hard to get us all in the same room at the same time.

Adam: 'Cos we don't care and you do.

Bono: Yes. See they don't care about you. I care.

MG: That's understandable. We only met an hour ago.

Adam: Ah - we'll lend you the drum machine!

Bono: They don't like you.

MG: That's fair enough!

Bono: I love you.

MG: Why are you doing a documentary? Why are there cameras in here? Wasn't Rattle And Hum a documentary?

Bono: Oh man, they follow us everywhere, even when we're not making records.

MG: C'mon you sort it out, you're in charge of your own destiny here.

Bono: Yeah it is; it's Planet Narcissus, man. This is just for our own viewing. As well as playing with each other we like to look at each other.

MG: (laughs) At home with U2!

Adam: I tell you what happens is, like you get so big that you can't write a diary, you know. So you hire a film crew (someone applauds) to remind you of where you've been and what you've done.

MG: Very good. Very good.

Bono: That's right. Holiday snaps.

MG: Yeah. You don't even need to send them off to get processed, they do it for you.

Edge: In fact it's Michael Jackson's film crew, he sent a camera crew over to observe us in our natural habitat.

MG: He needs to learn something, I think.

Edge: For his archive.

intro for Until The End Of The World fades in

MG: Larry, Adam, Bono and The Edge are here....Things do change in music, y'know, lets talk about rock, really; if you can imagine -

Bono: Let's talk about ROCK!

MG: It started in the 1950-something - 5, say .When it started it was young, it was rebellious, it was dangerous. Lots of the old stars are still making music and a lot of them are still quite popular, but sadly far from dangerous. Is that, ah...

Bono: Well the whole idea of dangerous - (someone - Edge? - sings "dangerous" in Michael Jackson falsetto) - that's the problem. I mean you know this idea of dangerous is still rooted in the 60's idea of what's dangerous. What was dangerous back then is not dangerous now. Listen man; the whole self-destruct thing, the whole sex & drugs & rock 'n' roll; that's playing into the hands of the corporations. They just call it built in obsolescence, you know burn out some rock 'n' roll star; find another one. That's all bullshit. Rebellion is a much more sophisticated thing now. To be subversive is not to smash up your hotel room...your record company would be very happy about that. Y'know, if I just wanted to piss in a B.B.C. cup here, that would be very good for records. That is not dangerous or rebellious. I'm actually, I cannot believe that people still fall for the old shite. Rock'n'roll - and it's very easy! No, it's so easy. I can't believe that people are still plugged into that, that idea of rebellion. The things of the spirit is what's really rebellious, that's what actually puts people's noses out of joint right now, not sex. Sex is - the corporations own that, it sells everything; it sells Coca-cola, it sells everything. So... We're shocked so easily. It's sad.

MG: Do you think then, Edge, that it gets more difficult to be the thorn in the side of people, if you'd like to be, as you move up the ladder in music.

Edge: Well we're in a really great position in a way, because we can get away with things that bands not at our level can't get away with. It might be something like just releasing The Fly and actually making American radio stations play it because it's the new U2 single. Sometimes small things like that can actually make a difference, and it's good fun just challenging the kind of accepted way of doing things.

MG: Does having The Fly on release for three weeks only also qualify as being rebellious as well?

Bono: Yeah man, whatever it takes to get that bastard to number 1, yeah. (MG laughs) And that's what it's about . It's abusing your position, that's what it is. And -

MG: Said without a smile on your face it has to be said!

Bono: Said what?

MG: You're saying this without a smile on your face! (laughter)

Bono: I'm just falling asleep, Mark.

Edge: No, but that wasn't our idea, that was the record company's idea. But, it was a really good idea, wasn't it! (laughter)

Bono: I mean...I dunno...I just think that is a cool thing to get away. And that's our job. Really. I mean that! That's our job, to abuse our position to get stuff on the radio that wouldn't normally get on the radio. We've had some help and we're very pleased with it and it is cool that you're playing it and that all the people - Simon Mayo or whatever who are playing our records - we don't expect to get played at 7.30 a.m.; and the fact that we are I think is not just good for U2, which it's very good for, but it's very good for the BBC 'cos they don't look as asleep as they might be.

MG: (laughs) Well you promised to clog up the airwaves the last time you were here.

Bono: Well there you go.

MG: You've done it slightly. We played a game in the office actually, trying to name another band who've been together for 14 years with the same line-up on the same record label, and we couldn't really think of very many; in fact, if any. The bond that started you there is still obviously there?

Larry: We signed a twenty year contract with Island Records. (laughter) A bit naïve back then!

Edge: It's a really shit deal.

MG: But are you happy to do this for another 14 years? Is there another 14 years -

Bono: As long as the records keep gettin' better we'll keep together, as soon as they get worse I'm, um... I'm off.

MG: What do you think about the Joshua Trio, Adam? Are you happy with having the Mickey taken out of you?

Bono: What a mickey, I might add. I'd just like to say it for the smallest member of U2.

MG: (laughs) We are not amused.

Adam: Ahh...I...yeah. The Joshua Trio are fine, ya know.

MG: They're on Mother Records so that can't be -

Bono: They're holy. (laughter)

Adam: They care. (more laughter)

MG: We're going to play a song here actually on the album which, Bono, could have been for Roy Orbison.

Bono: What's that, um...?

Edge: So Cruel.

Bono: Yeah.

MG: Was this written in the same time span as the rest of the album?

Bono: You know the biggest thing I suppose for anybody who ever tried to put a song together is the idea of somebody like Elvis singing one of your songs. And as you know our song for Elvis did him so proud. (laughter) No, if you can't get Elvis get Roy Orbison.

MG: Well your last song for Roy Orbison did him proud, didn't it?

Bono: And, ah, yeah. So what did you want to play?

MG: We're going to play So Cruel.

Adam: The one we didn't finish in time.

Bono: Oh yeah, So Cruel. Yeah, I'm glad that you want to play that. I suppose it is in the tradition of Running Scared or one of those rather selfish and savage love songs that he sang so well. I'm not sure I sing it so well, but you can play it anyway.

Intro to So Cruel

MG: So Cruel from Achtung Baby; we're playing and talking with U2, and we have time for a little bit more -

Bono: (murmurs) Swimming pools.

MG: Yeah we're talking about swimming pools actually. You were saying that um.... (laughter) do you want to talk about this? Do you want to talk about this? No, we can say what you were saying on - you were saying that you don't need another swimming pool - (laughter)

Edge: Yeah, four is enough, really.

MG: Well what you were really saying was that you think that bands are encouraged not to get very big. New bands.

Edge: Well that's true man...that's true.

Bono: It's why Britain hasn't put out as great rock'n'roll band as The Kinks, The Stones, The Beatles and all the rest of it. 'Cos they've had the potential, there's been some great bands through, but they've been broken up by I suppose a kind of small-mindedness that seems pervasive to what's going on here.

MG: You're talking about people like The Smiths or whatever?

Bono: Oh whatever, yeah; The Smiths, The Clash - great rock'n'roll bands; they're not around, I don't know why. And the whole idea that big is bad is really dangerous.

MG: But sometimes bands are of a time, and sometimes bands are right for the time; you're lucky that you've been able to stretch across more than a decade.

Bono: Yeah! But you know, a lot of people haven't heard of some of the good bands that have come out of here, around the world. I think that's a shame and I just think it's a dangerous idea, really.

MG: Because the British music industry sometimes plays it very safe, that's why. So we've discovered that you're not gonna quit soon, you're not gonna end up being trout farmers like Roger Daltry or do credit card ads or whatever. Have you done any ads in Japan or anything like that? Like big stars sometimes do and sort of don't admit to it?

Larry: Yeah, we're not prepared to talk about that! (laughter)

Edge: It's a vicious lie.

MG: No no, I just made it up, I made the question up, I had no idea. You haven't, as far as I'm aware, used any songs on commercials, or allowed them, rather, to be used. Which was a sort of Beatles thing until Jackson got hold of the catalogue.

Bono: We don't have to. I mean that is -

Larry: When we need a bigger swimming pool!

Bono: That is it, you know, I mean you don't have to do it. I always thought that was the deal, y'know. There's some kind of deal between your audience - y'know they give you the dough and say don't worry about where you're going on holidays and where you're gonna live and all the rest of it. You just give us the good music and don't do anything stupid. And, ah... we've really blown that one, I s'pose! (laughter)

MG: You've survived well so far. The last time you were here, I should talk to you about this briefly, you said that you weren't going to play Sunday Bloody Sunday again because you were fed up with it, you were tired of it; and y'know, we respect that. And you did say that -

Bono: Wasn't tired of it.

MG: Well the reaction to it or whatever. But you know the situation does get worse in Northern Ireland, you were saying you were sad or whatever about that last time. But there are even more British troops there now than there were before.

Bono: Yeah, I feel sorry for everybody there, you know? Feel sorry for the minority that's had to put up with such shit for so long. I feel sorry for the British soldiers, 18 year old guys who can't get jobs and end up there. I just feel sorry for everybody. We should blame it on the Dutch really, shouldn't we? (puts heavy Irish accent) 'William o' Orange'........he was Dutch wasn't he? (laughter)

MG: Good! We have one more record to play. The last time you were here it was sort of billed as a one hour show and it stretched to two hours. This was billed as a one hour conversation and we're already late, y'know we have to finish now, 'cos -

Bono: Mark, you're a pet! Don't go.

MG: - somebody else is gonna be on the wireless!

Bono: Who's coming on?

MG: Somebody more important than U2, obviously!

Bono: No, no no no.

MG: Yeah, obviously! It's the rap show actually.

Bono: Rap? I can rap!

MG: No you can't! (laughter) There's no rap on this album. We're going to play One here, which is going to be the new single, and proceeds from this are going to A.I.D.S. research which is a very right on thing to be doing at the moment, but I'm sure you're not doing it for that reason.

Adam: And relief.

MG: Ok, Adam.

Edge: Relief, yeah. Over to Adam.

MG: Over to Adam for this one, please.

Adam: It's not just A.I.D.S. research. I think people think, "oh we'll help the whole cause", and they do give money and it goes to just research. But we actually want to try and get some money to relieve the problem for people who are suffering, so it's going to both sets of -

MG: And that's fair enough, y'know. That was pointed out about Freddie Mercury's death, in that it was horrible for him of course, but he did have a lot more comfort than a lot of people who also are going to die or have died of A.I.D.S., so that's very good. Is there a special reason though why this song, though, particularly - One - is the one you've chosen to donate the royalties from?

Bono: Ah...there is, but I'd rather not go into it.

MG: That's where we'll have to leave it, 'cos there is somebody more important than you on the wireless. Bono, The Edge, Larry, Adam -

Bono: (deadpan) Mark...I doubt it. (laughter)

MG: See you in another - see you in another - three or four years!

Larry: Five years.

MG: Five years is it, Larry?

Larry: Yes.

MG: Wasn't that bad, was it?

Larry: Nah, it wasn't that bad. You've got the job; R.T.E would employ you anytime.

MG: Thankyou.

intro to One.........and end of show.